Adriano S.

avevo sentito anch io di alcune persone con problemi legati all'usura precoce dei pressure plate della frizione .. ma vai a sapere se guasti legati all'uso poco ortodosso della frizione stessa oppure se legato effettivamente ad un problema di tipo strutturale delle frizione ..

nc ....

ecco alcune risposte ricevute da queste persone : Ecco la risposta tardiva di Leslie Mark Kendall , direttore del "Petersen Automotive Museum" a LA : poi allego anche sotto un articolo che scrisse sull'argomento: Dear Dr. Sinicco: Thank you for your message and for giving us a bit of time to get back to you. As it happens, there is no simple definition for the term “muscle car”, but most enthusiasts agree that such vehicles embody the following characteristics: American in origin Manufactured during the mid-1950s through early-1970s Equipped with extremely large V-8 engines High horsepower ratings Excellent straight-line performance and acceleration Easily modified for drag strip competition As you can see, the size of a vehicle is less important than the size of the engine. Attached is my article on muscle cars in general that might help shed additional light on the matter. Please let me know if we can help with anything else. Very best regards, Leslie Mark Kendall Curator Petersen Automotive Museum 6060 Wilshire Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90036 Articolo scritto da lui : American Musclecars: Power to the People Petersen Quarterly Article By Leslie Kendall Musclecars are American vehicles built from the mid-1950s to the early 1970s equipped with large, powerful engines providing exceptional straight-line acceleration. Although such engines had powered luxury cars since the early 1950s, they had been a necessity brought about by the need to propel heavy vehicles with power-draining refinements such as air conditioning, air suspension compressors, power steering pumps and other add-ons. Though potent, they did not offer the same kind of raw, visceral driving experience or race-winning potential that musclecars did. Nor did they distinguish their owners as youthful, progressive and rebellious. Musclecars were as much about image as they were about performance. Most historians consider the 1955 Chrysler C300 to be the first musclecar. Unlike cars before it, the 300 appealed to buyers seeking outright performance, not luxury, economy or roominess. The name even proclaimed its horsepower rating, reminding both the driver and other motorists of its capabilities. Keeping with Chrysler’s tradition of advanced engineering, their C300 was powered by a 331-cubic inch Hemi engine that debuted in Saratogas and New Yorkers in 1951. Designed to employ a highly efficient hemispherical combustion chamber shape, hence the “Hemi” designation, the engine was both compact and powerful for its size. These traits were appreciated by racing aficionados, and the Chrysler C300 took both the NASCAR and AAA stock car championships during its first year of production. By 1959, the Hemi had grown to 392 cubic inches before being replaced by the 400-horsepower 413 Wedge in the 1959 300-F. In its ultimate form, the Wedge had a 426-cubic inch displacement and produced a ground-pounding 425 horsepower. It was last offered in the final Chrysler Letter Car, the 1965 300-L. Ford, Chevrolet and AMC were quick to take notice of the attention that the Chrysler 300 series was receiving. Desiring to keep pace with Chrysler—both literally and figuratively—these automakers soon followed with performance versions of their own large cars. Though Ford offered a supercharged engine in 1957 rated at a healthy 300 horsepower, it was expensive, too exotic for the average buyer, and drew few orders. Chevrolet debuted a fuel-injected engine that same year, which, though potent, met with the same customer resistance. AMC planned to offer fuel injection on its 1957 Rambler Rebel, but the system could not be made reliable and was never listed. By the early 1960s, all manufacturers came to realize that traditionally engineered motors, which were easier and cheaper to build, buy and service, could all be made potent by effecting one simple change: increasing their displacement. Reasoning that the awesome power of engines like the Chrysler Hemi, Ford 402, Chevrolet 409 and AMC 390 was misapplied in large cars like those of the Chrysler 300 series, engineers eventually began to install their most potent big-block engines in smaller, lighter midsize cars to the delight of enthusiasts. This change in approach first came about when engineer John Z. DeLorean circumvented a General Motors corporate edict not to put big-block engines in midsize cars. Though frowned upon by management, his decision to do so was popular with young and youthful-thinking buyers seeking distinctive transportation at a moderate price. It marked the beginning of the performance era and inspired Ford, Chrysler, AMC, and all other GM divisions except Cadillac to follow. In 1964 Ford installed a 427-cubic inch engine into a Fairlane to create the legendary Thunderbolt, but few were made. To better compete in the market that came to be defined by the Pontiac GTO, they devised a way to install the hefty 390-cubic inch V-8 in the 1966 Fairlane and, one year later, the Mustang. Building upon the initial positive public reaction, derivatives of the 390-, 427-, 428- and 429-cubic inch engines were installed in Fords and Mercurys with intimidating names like Super Cobra Jet, Mach I, Cyclone, and Eliminator. Suspensions were enhanced to better cope with the added stresses of the ever more powerful engines. Spoilers, hood- and side-scoops, and modified front sheetmetal were available to those serious about achieving top performance on oval tracks and at the drag strip. Like other manufacturers, Ford offered most of the equipment that made them competitive to the general public. Having started the musclecar phenomenon with their understated Hemi-powered C300 in 1955, Chrysler maintained a high profile during the musclecar era by building some of the wildest, most attention-getting vehicles of the day. At first restrained in appearance, many early Max Wedge-equipped Plymouths and Dodges could easily be mistaken for bottom-of-the-line sedans bought by humble librarians and economy-minded traveling salesmen. But by the late 1960s, their mostly bland colors and stripped-down appearance gave way to vibrant paint schemes accented by flashy graphics, gaping hood scoops and radical aerodynamic enhancements like the special nosepieces and soaring spoilers found on Plymouth Superbirds and Dodge Daytonas. Yet the most memorable component of the Chrysler Corporation musclecar arsenal was the extraordinary Hemi engine, which enjoyed a brief, but spectacular revival between 1966 and 1971. Although American Motors began the 1960s with a stodgy image, the firm was quick to recognize the need to offer cars that could hold their own against competing makes in the musclecar market segment. To bolster their image, they engaged Roger Penske to campaign Javelins in the Trans Am series and won a championship. Driver Mark Donohue even lent his name to a special Javelin model. Other offerings included the unexpectedly stylish AMX, the only mass-produced, domestic two-seater to share the market with Chevrolet’s Corvette since the 1957 Ford Thunderbird. Available in colors with menacing names like Big Bad Orange, Big Bad Blue and Big Bad Green, the nimble cars could be equipped with engines ranging in size up to 390 cubic inches. They were in production from 1968 through 1970. During the run of the AMX, two graphics-laden, one-year-only models debuted: the 1969 Hurst SC/Rambler and the 1970 Rebel Machine. Both specials featured patriotic red, white and blue paint schemes that seemed entirely appropriate for a firm with “American” in its name. By the early 1970s, demand for fast cars began to dwindle because of escalating insurance rates, increasingly strict emissions controls and rising gasoline prices. Consumer tastes shifted rapidly and the cars that once captured the public imagination and helped build showroom traffic came to be regarded as socially irresponsible. Many were scrapped after only a few years or were allowed to deteriorate in overgrown fields or storage yards open to the elements. But the loss of interest was only temporary. About 20 years after the last musclecars rolled off the line in the early 1970s, a new appreciation for their place in motoring history brought about a renewed interest in musclecars. Since few musclecars have known histories or survive in good original condition, collectors and enthusiasts have since organized clubs and registries to help them with restorations or establish a vehicle’s authenticity. The record prices realized for the most highly prized examples like Hemi ‘Cuda Convertibles, COPO Camaros, and 428 Super Cobra Jet Shelby Mustangs, make establishing a car’s provenance essential. Although the last musclecars were built more than three decades ago, they continue to captivate enthusiasts and can still outperform many highly esteemed modern cars. Their bold engineering, unbridled power, flashy graphics, and inventive body modifications set them apart and call to mind an era when Detroit first came to realize that the power-enhancing modifications employed for years by backyard hot rodders could unlock the potential of their otherwise ordinary engines. The Petersen Automotive Museum Musclecars: Power to the People exhibition will present a variety of musclecars, both street and racing, built by all four major manufacturers: Ford, Chrysler, General Motors and American Motors. Together, they exemplify the carefree spirit of an optimistic age and today are among the best-remembered and most coveted cars on the road. prima risposta da motosrportshalloffame museum: ( aspetto altre 4 rispote da 3 musei specializzati ed un scrittore/storico) Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high-performance automobiles. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving." A large V8 engine is fitted in a 2-door, rear wheel drive, family-style mid-size or full-size car designed for four or more passengers. Sold at an affordable price, muscle cars are intended for mainly street use and occasional drag racing. They are distinct from two-seat sports cars and expensive 2+2 GTsintended for high-speed touring and road racing. Developed simultaneously in their own markets, muscle cars also emerged from manufacturers in Australia, South Africa, the United Kingdom, and elsewhere . According to Muscle Cars, a book written by Peter Henshaw, a "muscle car" is "exactly what the name implies. It is a product of the American car industry adhering to the hot rodder's philosophy of taking a small car and putting a large-displacement engine in it. The Muscle Car is Charles Atlas kicking sand in the face of the 98 horsepower weakling." Henshaw further asserts that the muscle car was designed for straight-line speed, and did not have the "sophisticated chassis", "engineering integrity", or "lithe appearance" of European high-performance cars. However, opinions vary as to whether high-performance full-size cars, compacts, and pony cars qualify as muscle cars. Risposta dello scrittore , storico e intenditore di macchine americane David Newhardt: Hello Adriano, how are you doing? It's good to hear from another "car guy"! You ask a very good question, one that is still debated here. Personally, I am in the same camp as you regarding the definition of a "Muscle Car". Pony cars, such as the Mustang and Camaro, can be considered true muscle cars IF they have the right driveline. That tends toward a big-block engine. When the 1964 GTO was introduced, that was the birth of the proper "Muscle Car" era. As you note, that was an intermediate platform with a huge engine. Pony cars, when the Mustang was unveiled, leaned more towards a well-rounded driving experience; they had the ability to turn and brake, as well as accelerate. The 1964 GTO made no attempt at turning or stopping well; it was built to go fast in a straight line. As the 1960's wore on, the pony cars started to offer drivetrains that emphasized the straight-arrow approach to performance embraced by "pure" muscle cars. At that point, the pony car became a "proper" muscle car. Case in point; the 1969-70 Boss 429. With a race-bred engine meant for NASCAR use, the Mustang could hold the huge engine only after the firewall and shock towers were beaten with a hammer to provide clearance. The engine was HEAVY, which did nothing for handling or braking. The Boss 429's single reason for being was to lunge down a drag strip. Period. And that is exactly what any self-respecting muscle car was meant to do. Some people point at vehicles such as the Boss 302 and the Z/28 and say that they're not muscle cars. And those people are right. Those vehicles and others, such as the Challenger T/A, were street versions of Trans Am road racing cars. Able to carve a corner and stop well, they cannot be considered "Muscle Cars". Look at a Chevelle LS6; it can't turn or brake its way out of a paper bag. But you'd better have it aimed when you nail the accelerator. I hope that my long-winded rant helps. If you need anything else, just give me a shout! Warmest Regards, David domanda mia con rispota di D. Newhardt: Sempre discutendo in prima persona con David Newhardt : Domanda: But people who only accept the definition of muscle cars whicn includes only mide size/ intermediates with full size engines .. I mean who came out first with this description and when? Risposta: Funny thing is, in the era, these vehicles weren't called "Muscle Cars", they were called "Super Cars", and an entire industry grew up building ever faster straight-line cars. Witness the success of Yenko, Baldwin-Motion, Royal Pontiac, etc. These firms didn't limit themselves to intermediate platforms with big engines; they beefed up anything. People who say that muscle cars MUST be an intermediate body with a large engine are frozen in 1964. Detroit's manufacturers didn't freeze in a single brief era; they evolved the genre to meet the demands of the market. The public wanted cars that could go like stink in a straight line, and some of them wanted a vehicle that wasn't an intermediate. Maybe they liked the look of a smaller car like a Camaro or Mustang. The Big 3 knew this, and they created brutal, straight-line machines that were Super Cars. Altra gente come guru di Shelby negli States come Bob Gaines ( giudice oro 67/68 Shelby ) Jeff Sneathen ( Semo Mustang ) , Jim Wicks ( collezionista e presente sulla scena Mustang /Shelby dagli anni 60) tutti alla fine sostengono la medesima cosa .

infatti questo sito che ben conosco bene o male la vede come me .. il concetto e quello!

E un argomento interessante perché racchiude tutt'in uno storia dell' automobilismo , un po' di specifiche tecniche delle nostre amate ma anche testimonianze nonché' fatti degli anni 50/60 ... Sono anche discussioni come queste che possono spingere il livello di un forum oltre ...

il controsterzo si impara ... ma non per strada .. se fosse possibile!

tutto dipende : 1) stato pneumatici 2) condizioni meteo e manto stradale 3) potenza vettura 4) se parti sfrizionando fai sgommare anche una Panda 45 5) in curva chiaramente e piu difficile gestire lo sbandamento e devi lavorare di controsterzo ed acceleratore ...

Già dal 71 le muscle cars erano praticamente sparite .. Per definizione l ultima muscle Car fu la trans am 455 super duty del 72.... Il termine muscle ripeto nacque nel ambiente degli hotroders negli anni 50 ... " This car got muscles" di certo non si riferivano ad una categoria e dimensione di scocca/ telaio ma puramente ad un concetto di motore e potenza ... Sono aperto però a testimonianze o articoli d epoca anni 50 e 60 che definiscano il termine muscle cars basandosi sopratutto Sulla dimensione oltre che al motore ... Sono il primo a voler imparare ...

bhe si Ale .. il 5.0 coyote sulla Gt .. ha oltre 400 cavalli ..

Io di certo non vado ad opinionare su quello che dicono personaggi di questo calibro , alcuni hanno vissuto in prima persona l'epoca e cio' che veniva detto allora .. altri hanno dedicato buona parte della loro vita studiando il periodo ed intervistando "superstiti" per scrivere i loro libri sull'argomento .. la mia data di nascita ( anni 70 ) e il fato anche che non ho mai vissuto negli States mi permette solo di avere una cultura sulle americane attraverso libbri, riviste, manuali ecc e parlando con gente locale che questi periodi li ha vissuti Muscle Car e un termine nato negli States in un determinato periodo se ne parlava sempre negli USA .. su macchine USA .. includere macchine "estere" secondo me e' poco ortodosso ...poi nel giorno d'oggi con la globalizzazione dove le americane montano motori italiani ecc. , tutto evidentemente sembra essere permesso .. ps: la cosa piu interessante e' che non ho scelto solo le risposte a favore della mia visione " inquinando " il sondaggio ! tutte le persone che ho interpellato indistintamente hanno riposto nel medesimo modo ... e questo secondo me e' abbastanza inidicativo direi .. cmq a Tulsa rifaro' un giro di domande e vedremo .

Saro' presente personalmente ma anche come sponsor del Mid America Ford Meet che compie i suoi 40 anni e per celebrare ovviamente anche i 50 anni dell Stang .. saranno presenti i piu grossi nomi tra collezionisti di Mustang e Shelby , una gran numero dei giudici gold MCA ed altre persone .. vediamo cosa dice la gente li mediamente sul discorso Pony Muscle .. sara la premura farvi sapere cosa dicono

Sulle corvette si puo' discutere direi .. per cio' che riguarda il prezzo delle Vette C2 C3 .. non sono bassi di certo .. pero una charger col 426 .. una Chally col Hemi o 440 six pack matching .. una Hemi Cuda .. Le shelby stesse anni 60 .. non e che siano da meno anzi ...

la pony inoltre erano delle macchine dal look abbastanza sportivo che avevano mediamente come target un pubblico piu giovane che s'inquadravano in un segmento di prezzo chiaramente inferiore alle luxury cars .. che potevano anche montare un V8 , ma la cui motorizzazione base era sicuramente il 6 cilindri

si davide in un certo senso concordo con te infatti dal 1972 ... le muscle cars spariscono dalla scena automobilstica ( la cubatura c'era ancora ma le potenze erano troppo basse per poter essere chiamate muscle ) .. pero' il concetto iniziale era cmq "macchina di tutti i giorni dal motore grosso e potente con cui il week end puoi andare sul drag strip e sfidare altre vetture" .. diciamo pero' che con una Shelby Gt500 5a gen , una Camaro ZL1 moderna adempiescono questa definizione alla fine .. chiaro che' tornando al concetto iniziale di "era of the muscle cars" , questa si e' conclusa all'inizio degli anni 70 .. questo e un dato di fato .. ps: sulle vette si apre ancora un altro capitolo .... una cosa e la definizione di corvette come sports car in base alla sua forma , numero posti a sedere ecc .. un po come quelli che dicono che la Camaro Copo oppure le Hemi Cuda non lo possa essere muscle perche' E-body .. come si fa a dire che una Vette C2 col L88 non sia una muscle cars ( ma anche con il 427 normale ) ? .. again : la definizione di muscle cars viene inserita sul Webster e altri dizionari quando il capitolo muscle cars era gia giunto a termine ..

l'aerodinamica fa anche tanto sopra certe velocita .. Charger Daytona che aveva una scocca fatta a posta per la nascar ... ha superato le 320 km/h!!!

o/t : non so proprio di che cosa stai parlando

in linea di massima le 64.6-66 in base a motorizzazione e rapporto al ponte sei in una forchetta di velocita' dai 160-200km/h circa ... emisisoni e CO2 direi che e meglio stendere un velo pietoso ... consumi dipende molto dal tuo stile di guida .. se il giretto sul lago della domenica a velocita di crociera 50/60 all'ora oppure se "pedal to the metal"!

sai per qcuno la propria macchina diventa un prolungamente del pe.e ... e allora guai a presentarsi o menzionare qcosa che puo' mettere a repentaglio la sua egemonia ..

il termine muscle car nasce nella scene degli Hotroder gia nelli anni 50 per definire un macchina , che appunto , aveva i muscoli .. quindi un motore grosso e potente ...

Bhe Ale su questo forum missa tanto che sara piu facile discutere .. per ovvi motivi .. siamo in casa Mustang ..

per tornare alla tua domanda sulla velocita' delle stang prima generazione .. dipende molto dal rapporto al ponte!!!

Ho creato un thread a posta .. cosi discutiamo li .. il grosso problema sai qual e : quanto inizi a parlar con gente che stravede per le Mopar ecc .. allora quando dici che la Shelby e una Muscle cars non ci vedono piu .. putroppo devono accettare la dura realta ... io amo tante altre macchine americane non solo le Mustang pero' quando si discute bisogna essere obbiettivi ed arrivare con delle argomentazioni e sopratutto testimonianze dell epoca valide .. e non solo definizioni prese da wikipedia magari scritte da un 20 enne ..

Qui putroppo devo intervenire , ho avuto discussioni lunghissime in un altro forum rispetto alla quesitone pony cars muscle cars.. oltre alla mia cultura generale ho interpellato grossi collezionisti ( floyd garrett ed altri ) , direttori di musei di macchine americane , gente come David Newhardt che ha scritto svariati libbri tra cui " the art of the muscle car" e tutti quanti hanno detto alla fine la medesima cosa: .. una pony car , se equipaggiata con un motore V8 big block era ed e' a tutti gli effetti una Muscle car!!! ( Shelby Gt500/ KR , Boss 429 , Camaro Copo , Dodge Challenger 440/426 Hemi ecc ecc )

non sono spiccioli , la realta' nella stai uniti ora nel mondo del collezionismo e la seguente: da una parte abbiamo un sacco di macchine con restauri piu' vecchi .. anni 80-90 che devono essere per forza ripresi completamente per ottenere delle macchine da concorso a tutti gli effetti ( anche perche' in quelli anni venivano eseguiti in modo meno preciso perche' giravano anche meno soldi intorno a queste macchine ) , oppure poche macchine perfettamente restaurate oppure delle "survivor " con ancora la vernice originale , tutti lamierati ecc.. infatti i prezzi nelle aste rispecchiano questa situazione ; in questo caso specifico , una KR convertibile restaurata perfettamente arrivava tranquillamente sopra 200k usd ( poi in base al colore ed alcuni optional il prezzo puo ancora variare di un qcosa ) , evidentemente questa come diceva Baraz e' una older restoration ...

intervento questo per vedere il numero di casting del blocco motore e quindi verificarne l'eventuale "matching" con il resto della vettura ..